Discussion:
Lady Godiva [fl. 1040-1080]?
(too old to reply)
D. Spencer Hines
2006-06-18 19:13:32 UTC
Permalink
Lady Godiva [Godgifu] may indeed be an ancestor of Elihu Yale [1649-1721] --
an 18th Great-Grandmother to be precise.

Deucedly Appropriate...

The Fair Lady may well be an ancestor of mine as well -- a 29th
Great-Grandmother.

How Sweet It Is!

Deus Vult.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Look at the lands mentioned in these charters, they might
be spurious but DB attests the authentic basis of them.
No one would deny the connection of Leofric and Godiva
to Coventry, they started Coventry on the road to prosperity
Roger de Hoveden says,
"Leofric the praiseworthy Earl of happy memory, son of
Duke Leofwine, departed this life, at a good old age,
at his town which is called Bromlege, on the second
day before the kalends of September, and was honourably
buried at Coventry,which monastery, among other good works
which he did in his lifetime, he himself and his wife,
the noble countess Godiva, a worshipper of God, and a
devoted lover of St. Mary ever a virgin, had built with their
patrimonial possesions [sic], and abundantly endowed it with
lands."
S 1233 is for Newark, Fledborough, Brampton in Torksey
and Marton in Well Wapentake Lincs.
DB shows Newark as having been owned by Lady Godiva
and Gilbert of Ghent who was said to have been
Hereward's godfather. Fledborough is owned by Godiva.
Brampton belongs to the Bishop of Lincoln, some of the
nearby land has owners with the same names as Brand's
brothers, Gamal also owns land there. I can't find Marton
in DB but nearby land is owned by people connected
to the family including possibly Godiva's sister.
As for Countess Lucy, perhaps there's another Thorald
that I should have looked more closely at.
I don't think we've disproved Earl Leofric yet.
Lets take a look at some of the more minor characters
connected with Hereward and see if they can throw
a little light on the subject.
Celia
D. Spencer Hines
2006-06-18 22:53:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by D. Spencer Hines
Lady Godiva [Godgifu] may indeed be an ancestor of Elihu Yale
[1649-1721] -- an 18th Great-Grandmother to be precise.
Deucedly Appropriate...
The Fair Lady may well be an ancestor of mine as well -- a 29th
Great-Grandmother.
How Sweet It Is!
Deus Vult.
As Paul Gans was good enough to answer an intrusive question
about a description you had given of him to restore the balance;
is he right when he says that you believe in the 'prosperity doctrine?'
No. I'm an Episcopalian -- not a Calvinist.

Gans is clueless about me as well as Christianity and has chased many red
herrings and pieces of misinformation which have been fed him by others.
-----------------------------------------

It's a Calvinist Doctrine.

Gans has also completely misquoted, misrepresented and twisted the
doctrine -- do a little research on "The Elect" and Predestination.

Again:

Pogue Gans is a Rhetorical Marxist and an Actual Capitalist [by his own
admission] -- i.e., he is a Parlor Socialist of the Greenwich-Village
persuasion.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Vires et Honor
j***@pacbell.net
2006-06-19 06:29:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by D. Spencer Hines
Gans is clueless about me as well as Christianity and has chased many red
herrings and pieces of misinformation which have been fed him by others.
"Red herring" (defined)

A post originally vigorously by its originator and later
discovered to be tripe. Usage is confined to
post-discovery phase.


Example: Tom DeLay explaining that his brilliant
"commander in chief" ordered the invasion of
Iraq as a red herring to throw al-Qaida off.

Okay, I made the example up. There are limits
even to Tom DeLay's stupidity.
j***@pacbell.net
2006-06-19 14:42:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@pacbell.net
Post by D. Spencer Hines
Gans is clueless about me as well as Christianity and has chased many red
herrings and pieces of misinformation which have been fed him by others.
"Red herring" (defined)
A post originally vigorously by its originator and later
discovered to be tripe. Usage is confined to
post-discovery phase.
That should be:

Red herring: a post at first defended vigorously by
its originator and later discovered to be tripe.
Peter Alaca
2006-06-19 14:46:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@pacbell.net
Post by j***@pacbell.net
Post by D. Spencer Hines
Gans is clueless about me as well as Christianity and has chased
many red herrings and pieces of misinformation which have been fed
him by others.
"Red herring" (defined)
A post originally vigorously by its originator and later
discovered to be tripe. Usage is confined to
post-discovery phase.
Red herring: a post at first defended vigorously by
its originator and later discovered to be tripe.
Red herring:
- Any diversion intended to distract
attention from the main issue
- A dried and smoked herring having
a reddish colour
j***@pacbell.net
2006-06-19 14:51:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Alaca
Post by j***@pacbell.net
Post by j***@pacbell.net
Post by D. Spencer Hines
Gans is clueless about me as well as Christianity and has chased
many red herrings and pieces of misinformation which have been fed
him by others.
"Red herring" (defined)
A post originally vigorously by its originator and later
discovered to be tripe. Usage is confined to
post-discovery phase.
Red herring: a post at first defended vigorously by
its originator and later discovered to be tripe.
- Any diversion intended to distract
attention from the main issue
- A dried and smoked herring having
a reddish colour
Er, yes, that's the literal meaning, and, see, mine is
satirical after Ambrose Bierce, q.v.
Martin
2006-06-19 17:08:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by D. Spencer Hines
Post by D. Spencer Hines
Lady Godiva [Godgifu] may indeed be an ancestor of Elihu Yale
[1649-1721] -- an 18th Great-Grandmother to be precise.
Deucedly Appropriate...
The Fair Lady may well be an ancestor of mine as well -- a 29th
Great-Grandmother.
How Sweet It Is!
Deus Vult.
As Paul Gans was good enough to answer an intrusive question
about a description you had given of him to restore the balance;
is he right when he says that you believe in the 'prosperity doctrine?'
No. I'm an Episcopalian -- not a Calvinist.
Gans is clueless about me as well as Christianity and has chased many red
herrings and pieces of misinformation which have been fed him by others.
-----------------------------------------
It's a Calvinist Doctrine.
Gans has also completely misquoted, misrepresented and twisted the
doctrine -- do a little research on "The Elect" and Predestination.
Pogue Gans is a Rhetorical Marxist and an Actual Capitalist [by his own
admission] -- i.e., he is a Parlor Socialist of the Greenwich-Village
persuasion.
There speaketh a 'Christian' - dear me!

The likes of DSH are one (excellent) reason I rejected and abandoned that faith
many years ago... at around the age of ten. He hasn't grown out of it yet, but
since 'thinking' is obviously not one of his strongpoints, charity dictates that
we should feel sorry for the poor fellow.

Well it *would* if we were all Christians on usenet, but most of us aren't, so
he gets his backside kicked time and time again - obviously God must approve?
Cheers
Martin
D. Spencer Hines
2006-06-18 23:13:51 UTC
Permalink
By some accounts, Henry V, King of England, [b.1387-d.1422] is a descendant
of Lady Godiva -- specifically a 14th great-grandson.

Queen Elizabeth II would also be a descendant of Lady Godiva by this alleged
genealogy -- specifically a 29th great-granddaughter -- which is the same
relationship I allegedly have to Lady Godiva, with the gender difference --
29th great-grandson. <g>

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Vires et Honor
D. Spencer Hines
2006-06-18 23:22:01 UTC
Permalink
"Of the Lady Godiva Legend. Godgifu. Sister of Thorold of Buckingham,
Sheriff of Lincolnshire.

LADY GODIVA (Godgifu, in the spelling of her time.)

An Anglo-Saxon gentlewoman, patron of the arts, equestrienne, and tax
protester, etc. All the historians say that she "flourished, circa 1040 -
1080 A.D."

Leofric, earl of Mercia, and husband of Lady Godiva, was a man of broad but
obscure interests; a religious man thoroughly Christian, and an
entrepreneur, raconteur, and general all around good sport. At the same
time, he did have an avaricious streak in him, and it is for this reason
that his name has survived through the ages, but more prominently for his
interesting response to the nagging of his bleeding-heart wife, who pestered
him incessantly over details of the daily lives of the peasants under his
control, and similar fussy matters.

It's not that she was always being petulant about everything he did, but
certain of his actions caused her to be irritable, but that part of the
story comes later.

Actually both Leofric and Godiva were quite religious, and upon their move
to Coventry, Warwickshire, from Shrewsbury, Shropshire (where Leofric had
earned his fortune and title from amazing successes in the mutton trade),
they were immediately impressed by the lack of proper facilities for
training and housing men of the cloth in or around the raucous little
district of Coventry (pop. 6215). How, they thought, were the spiritual
needs of these simple souls to be cared for? At the same time, being
somewhat "nouveau riche" and anxious to make their mark in what passed for
genteel society there (not having had the proper credentials to enter such
circles back in Shropshire -- which may have been a big piece of the
motivation for the move), they decided to apply some of their ready cash to
a worthy public cause.

Near the physical center of Coventry, where the bombed-out ruin of mighty
Coventry Cathedral stands today, Leofric and Godiva (in 1043) founded and
funded an abbey (some accounts say monastery), named in honor of Ste. Eunice
of Saxmundham (an early martyr, slain by flaying at the hands of the
Romans). The abbey faced the rising sun, as was decreed it should by Leofric
in a moment of romantic inspiration. A simple affair, made of wattle and
daub with a roof of thatched reeds in the manner of the day, it was
nevertheless imposing by standards in the village otherwise; it was the
biggest structure in the entire region.

Before long this edifice was something of a social focus for the town,
functioning not only as a center for the education and housing of those who
had received the calling, but also as a gathering point where more vulgar
popular events and festivities could be celebrated. Leofric and Godiva came
to be awarded the attention and respect they longed for from the start, and
they had served the purposes of the church as well. They did not seem to
mind that much of the activity circulating around the abbey was decidedly
Druid in origin; at least the peasants were occupied and happy. Coventry
grew around the abbey.

As a gentleman, and now established philanthropist of some local repute,
Leofric assumed a growing role in the governance of public affairs, and was
given responsibility for certain financial matters (the town had grown
enough to actually have financial matters), which he quickly understood as
presenting especially interesting opportunities. One public work generated
the idea of another, if only some money were at hand to facilitate such
growth...

Meanwhile, Godiva's proficiency as a horsewoman had become polished to a
considerable degree, as she had acquired a taste for the hunt and the social
pleasantries which accrue to the activity "apres." Plus, the people she met
during these excursions which provided such complacency, were of a
disposition and delicacy of interest to which she had aspired for some time.
She could do worse than to engage in certain preoccupations of the
intellect, and considerations of the aesthetic, and so she immersed herself
in the arts and, therefore, society.

Perhaps, she earnestly thought, aid to those industrious in this field of
elevated concern (artists) would inspire the rude masses by means of
example. Commissioning a proper portrait of herself would be a good place to
start; it would be an inspiration for simpler souls, so the work was begun.

It only slowly entered Godiva's consciousness that the lack of success she
was having in interesting the base masses in artistic concerns, beautiful
pictures of herself spread around or not, was rooted in the fact that nearly
all of them spent 100% of their waking hours in partially effective efforts
to feed and clothe themselves, and to provide some form of shelter from the
elements. Most were having a hard time of it, in light of the fact that
Leofric, in his new-found megalomaniacal grand-public-works mode, had been
taxing everything he could think of, even including a levy on manure.

Lady Godiva would not have such noble aspirations -- such as art for
everyone -- placed on a back burner for the sake of boring considerations
like a municipal water supply. Men had such ignoble visions, always
functional and mechanical, mostly never above waist level. This would not
do, the taxes must be reduced if this early medieval subsistence-agriculture
village was going to pull itself up into the 11th century and its more
cultured concerns. She went to have a pointed talk with Leofric.

Beside himself with raucous laughter, Leofric injured his left wrist
slightly as he fell off his stool in the hall of the village burghers, and
this sobered him up rather quickly. Reduce taxes in order to foster the
peasants' appreciation of silly pictures? Was she mad? No waterworks? There
would be no tax reduction; as a matter of fact, Leofric added a new tax on
pictures, which only had to be paid by his wife since she was the only
person who had any, except for the church which was exempt.

Their argument became a classic war of wills, taking the equally classic
form of nagging versus stone-walling. However, at very long last, since his
wife would not give up and was driving him to distraction and worse, Leofric
capitulated, but, regarding it all as something of a sport, attached an
interesting condition to his offer to allow some reduction in taxation.

The ancient Greeks, he pointed out, and those coarser Romans as well, viewed
the nude human body as one of the highest expressions of the perfection of
Nature. Nudity was not seen as erotic in any sense, but as purity, and a
celebration of the wonderful form of a sensuous being displayed in all its
marvelous glory for the betterment and appreciation of those enlightened
enough to consider this aesthetic. To present a well formed nude body as an
object of great beauty, even art, would be to offer a lesson of inestimable
value to the simple peasants of Coventry, whose experiences and perceptions
had never been enlightened to appreciate such perfection.

If Lady Godiva truly believed in the crusade she was promoting, then she
should lead it herself, and offer to the citizens of Coventry an example of
the glorious beauty to be understood by careful consideration of a perfect
nude human body. There could be no shame in this, it would be the most gross
error to consider it as such. Was she ashamed of the wonders of God's work?
Besides, with all that horse-back riding, and similar, she had lost some
weight and looked pretty good.

Therefore, Leofric proclaimed that if Lady Godiva would ride her horse
through the crowded market-place of Coventry, in the full light of mid-day,
clothed in only that which God had given her, as an example of the
perfection of God's work and as an expression of the highest possible
aesthetic -- she had been spreading pictures of herself around anyway --
then he would reduce taxes on the populace, lifting from them the burden
Godiva perceived, and erasing from himself any further doubt he might harbor
of the sincerity of Godiva's convictions.

To Leofric's absolute surprise, she agreed, once she had ensured that she
actually had his "permission" to do so.

Taken aback by his wife's courage and certainty in her purposes Leofric,
somewhat overwhelmed, then stated that he fully accepted the truth of Lady
Godiva's belief in the merits of her cause, and so in response, on
completion of her ride he would not just reduce taxes, but would remove all
of them -- save those tolls on horses which were already in place before he
assumed his office, and which were necessary for basic needs of the city.

A day was chosen for the event, and while no particular effort had been
expended to publicize the ride, talk of it had spread in whispers throughout
the whole of Coventry. Not wishing to reveal that this concealed discussion
had taken place, and since people were curious about all aspects of the
affair and did not want to interrupt it, the marketplace's business
proceeded as it might have done on any other less interesting Thursday in
late August.

As noon approached, so did Lady Godiva. She was not alone, but was
accompanied by two female aides also on horseback, but normally clothed; one
rode on each side and slightly to the rear. Three horses walking on the
cobbles in formation at a measured gait did not have the sound of the usual
traffic and bustle, and so -- since all were secretly and eagerly
anticipating the event -- her appearance was announced clearly to everyone.

She sat straight and properly in the saddle with a look of composure on her
face; relaxed, confident, unashamed. Her hair was done in two large braids
which were curled snugly at the back of her head, one on each side; she wore
no jewelry or other adornment. People looked at her and saw that she was not
merely naked, or nude; rather she was in a higher state of presentation --
being a correct and elevated quality of her composure, and resulting also
from the people's appraisal, appreciation, and consideration beyond simple
voyeurism.

To all present this was an experience like no other in their lives. The only
images of people unclothed they had ever seen were in the church: Adam and
Eve, and the crucified Christ. This was a lady, simple and normal with a
body like that of every other woman present, a human, a creature of God's
earth. Though he half meant it as a joke, Leofric's words rang true: here
was a celebration of being in its perfection.

Perhaps, as well, some believed with Zoroaster that sex is the bounty of
God.

So, all survived the event with peacefulness and dignity, and the taxes were
removed.

In the CHRONICA, written by Roger of Wendover (who died in 1236), the
account of the year 1057 tells the story of Godiva's ride in full detail,
and is the earliest surviving written description.

Even more complete versions are provided by the famous historian Ranulf
Higden (died in 1364) in his POLYCHRONICON, and by Henry Knighton (died c.
1396) who followed him, which explain not only the details of the ride and
its reasons, but also the specifics of the removed taxes, in particular that
all save those on horses were eliminated.

Much later, King Edward I, being an inquisitive man (he devised an earnest,
but rather awkward system for the classification of songbirds in Wales),
wished to discover the truth of the Godiva story and, therefore,
commissioned an inquiry of ancient records which showed that in 1057 and
thereabouts, there were indeed no taxes levied in Coventry except those on
horses, which was a rather anomalous situation not seen elsewhere at the
time, thereby establishing the merit and probable accuracy of the legend.

The tale of "Peeping Tom", who was struck blind (or dead) when he alone
gazed upon Lady Godiva was not added until the 17th century. This is also
true of the detail of the story, often added, that Godiva was covered
totally, except for her legs, by an enormous and improbable quantity of
hair.

Doubtless both of these embellishments were supplied later by prudish
Christian churchmen who entirely missed the point and considered that
viewing the unclothed human body under any circumstance was a heinous act
which would damn one to eternal hell fire; they certainly thought the female
body to be dirty and inferior to appreciation, and only worthy of being
hidden from view. On the face of it such a view would seem to be a
perversion, and affront to the beauty of God's work. The Greeks felt that
the idealized human form was the only one worthy to represent the gods on
earth. On the other hand, the Christian faith is unique in that it alone
has, throughout its history, suppressed any celebration of the beauty of the
human body.

So, what was Lady Godiva? A visionary; a social climber; a patron of the
arts; a dilettante of the worst order?

In any estimation, she had the guts to follow her convictions, and may have
brought a degree of enlightenment to a small corner of 11th century England.
And, probably, no one went to Hell because of it."

© Jerome C. Krause ---- http://www.abacom.com/~jkrause/godiva.html

From: ""Leo van de Pas"" <***@bigpond.com>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
Sent: Tuesday, December 24, 2002 10:23 PM
Subject: Lady Godiva "revealed"?

"Several questions have arisen about Lady Godiva and most are quite
impossible to give an answer to based on fact. We can only speculate----

Apparently her ride through town may have taken place in 1040----how old
was she?

Circa 1059/1062 her son, Alfgar, Earl of Mercia, died. He had by then
fathered four children. I would suggest he died young and was about thirty,
makes him born about 1030. Let's suggest his mother was about 20 when he
was born, then Lady Godiva was about thirty when she made her famous ride
through town. It could be 30 to 40. Godiva's husband died in 1057 and,
dying only about two or three years after his father, implies to me that
Alfgar was young. Lady Godiva apparently died in 1080 and, if born about
1010, makes her about 70
when she died.

To me it appears that Leofric was much older as, in The Anglo-Saxon
Chronicle, edited by Michael Swanton, page 188, "From 1005 he was known as
thegn and, from 1026, "dux" and, by 1032, was Earl of Mercia. On 30 October
1057 he passed away . He was very wise, before God and before the World, in
what availed all this nation. He was buried at Coventry and his son Alfgar
succeeded to his authority."

Leofric was Earl from 1032 till 1057 and in this period Lady Godiva made her
mark in history.

However, there could be more to her action than just the relief of tax for
the townspeople.

I collected and combined information in regards to Lady Godiva and, sadly,
cannot quickly quote my sources, but here we go.

She was a religious benefactress who---according to tradition when her
husband Leofric, Earl of Mercia, imposed a heavy tax on the townsfolk of
Coventry (1040)---obtained its remission by riding naked through the market
place. The story occurs in Roger of Wendover (1235). Some writers assert
that Lady Godiva ordered all to remain indoors, which they did except for
the famous Peeping Tom, but he was a later addition to the story.

An explanation of the Lady Godiva story could well be the survival of a
Celtic pagan celebration in honour of the goddess-spirit, Epona. To
celebrate the passage of the Moon across the night sky and, at the same
time, the change from winter to spring, a tradition of a naked lady with
long hair riding on a white horse had survived. Quite possibly Leofric,
Earl of Mercia, had dared his wife, Godiva, to take the local girl's place
in the procession.

Hope this partially satisfies the curiosity?

Best wishes and a happy Christmas."

Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
D. Spencer Hines
2006-06-27 16:09:37 UTC
Permalink
Anyone descended from Joan The Fair Maid of Kent, wife of the Black Prince,
is allegedly a descendant of Lady Godiva [Godgifu] ---- so that's hundreds
of thousands of us, at the least.

George Walker Bush, who will be 60 on July 6, is also allegedly a
descendant.

Queen Victoria, Edward VII and Queen Elizabeth II -- are some of the most
popular folks at the parties.

Prince Charles and Camilla are both allegedly descendants, of course, as are
the boys.

The Reunion Parties are rather crowded but I usually get in a few
semi-private moments with Great-Grandmother Godiva. Last year I asked her
about the long hair and the stirrups.

<G>

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Semper Fidelis

D. Spencer Hines
2006-06-19 05:37:23 UTC
Permalink
Lady Godiva is also allegedly the 14th Great-Grandmother of King Richard III
[b. 1452 -- d. 1485] as well, which should excite all the _Ricardians_. <g>

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Vires et Honor
j***@pacbell.net
2006-06-19 06:19:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by D. Spencer Hines
Lady Godiva [Godgifu] may indeed be an ancestor of Elihu Yale [1649-1721] --
an 18th Great-Grandmother to be precise.
Deucedly Appropriate...
Hey, Ducks, how's moral support for the invasion of
Iraq going? Has your dumb anorexic blonde said
anything memorably stoopid in the past 24 hours?



Okay, not so hot in Iraq, eh.


(Google posting whacked down to five newsgroups.)
j***@earthlink.net
2006-06-19 15:12:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@pacbell.net
Post by D. Spencer Hines
Lady Godiva [Godgifu] may indeed be an ancestor of Elihu Yale [1649-1721] --
an 18th Great-Grandmother to be precise.
Deucedly Appropriate...
Hey, Ducks, how's moral support for the invasion of
Iraq going? Has your dumb anorexic blonde said
anything memorably stoopid in the past 24 hours?
Okay, not so hot in Iraq, eh.
(Google posting whacked down to five newsgroups.)
Minus one, the navel content was lint

Good news, the K Street lobbyists are hiring Democratic staffers and
former Congressionals
95 Thesen
2006-06-22 09:17:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@earthlink.net
Post by j***@pacbell.net
Post by D. Spencer Hines
Lady Godiva [Godgifu] may indeed be an ancestor of Elihu Yale [1649-1721] --
an 18th Great-Grandmother to be precise.
Deucedly Appropriate...
Hey, Ducks, how's moral support for the invasion of
Iraq going? Has your dumb anorexic blonde said
anything memorably stoopid in the past 24 hours?
Okay, not so hot in Iraq, eh.
(Google posting whacked down to five newsgroups.)
Minus one, the navel content was lint
Good news, the K Street lobbyists are hiring Democratic staffers and
former Congressionals
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Going back to topic, I wonder if British science is advanced enough
to secure DNA from Lady Godiva's crypt and to create a clone. Then
we can see for ourselves if her hair can grow long enough to cover
those areas forbidden by the Quran.

Cheers, David H
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Loading...