Discussion:
Finland catches ship loaded with Patriot Missiles headed to China
(too old to reply)
David E. Powell
2011-12-22 19:29:35 UTC
Permalink
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16292244

<http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16292244>

Gee I wonder who let those leak out? Good they caught it anyway.
trijcomm
2011-12-22 19:38:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by David E. Powell
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16292244
<http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16292244>
Gee I wonder who let those leak out? Good they caught it anyway.
Clinton gave China nuclear missile technology. Wouldn't be surprised
if Obama did something like this to get in their good graces.
Dean Markley
2011-12-22 19:45:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by trijcomm
Post by David E. Powell
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16292244
<http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16292244>
Gee I wonder who let those leak out? Good they caught it anyway.
Clinton gave China nuclear missile technology. Wouldn't be surprised
if Obama did something like this to get in their good graces.
Really? Clinton just handed all the info over did he?
d***@hotmail.com
2011-12-22 20:50:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by trijcomm
Post by David E. Powell
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16292244
<http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16292244>
Gee I wonder who let those leak out? Good they caught it anyway.
Clinton gave China nuclear missile technology. Wouldn't be surprised
if Obama did something like this to get in their good graces.
Really?  Clinton just handed all the info over did he?
According to:

http://www.nytimes.com/1999/03/06/world/breach-los-alamos-special-report-china-stole-nuclear-secrets-for-bombs-us-aides.html?pagewanted=all

"Until recently, China's nuclear weapons designs were a
generation behind those of the United States, largely
because Beijing was unable to produce small warheads
that could be launched from a single missile at multiple
targets and form the backbone of a modern nuclear force.

But by the mid-1990's, China had built and tested such
small bombs, a breakthrough that officials say was
accelerated by the theft of American nuclear secrets
from Los Alamos National Laboratory in New Mexico.

The espionage is believed to have occurred in the
mid-1980's, officials said. But it was not detected until
1995, when Americans analyzing Chinese nuclear test
results found similarities to America's most advanced
miniature warhead, the W-88."
Paul F Austin
2011-12-22 21:06:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@hotmail.com
Post by Dean Markley
Post by trijcomm
Post by David E. Powell
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16292244
<http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16292244>
Gee I wonder who let those leak out? Good they caught it anyway.
Clinton gave China nuclear missile technology. Wouldn't be surprised
if Obama did something like this to get in their good graces.
Really? Clinton just handed all the info over did he?
http://www.nytimes.com/1999/03/06/world/breach-los-alamos-special-report-china-stole-nuclear-secrets-for-bombs-us-aides.html?pagewanted=all
"Until recently, China's nuclear weapons designs were a
generation behind those of the United States, largely
because Beijing was unable to produce small warheads
that could be launched from a single missile at multiple
targets and form the backbone of a modern nuclear force.
But by the mid-1990's, China had built and tested such
small bombs, a breakthrough that officials say was
accelerated by the theft of American nuclear secrets
from Los Alamos National Laboratory in New Mexico.
The espionage is believed to have occurred in the
mid-1980's, officials said. But it was not detected until
1995, when Americans analyzing Chinese nuclear test
results found similarities to America's most advanced
miniature warhead, the W-88."
Actually, two different chains of events. A nuclear weapons designer
with patterns of travel to China copied the entire nuclear weapons
archive onto a removable hard drive and "stored it off site for
safekeeping" after his access to the SCIF was terminated. Jan Reno's
Justice Department muffed the prosecution and the federal trial judge
threw out the case. Secondly, China had problems with their satellite
launchers and Space Systems/Loral provided ITAR restricted information
to the Chinese to fix the problems (which had to do with guidance
systems IIRC).

Paul
trijcomm
2011-12-22 21:56:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by trijcomm
Post by David E. Powell
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16292244
<http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16292244>
Gee I wonder who let those leak out? Good they caught it anyway.
Clinton gave China nuclear missile technology. Wouldn't be surprised
if Obama did something like this to get in their good graces.
Really?  Clinton just handed all the info over did he?
http://www.nytimes.com/1999/03/06/world/breach-los-alamos-special-rep...
"Until recently, China's nuclear weapons designs were a
generation behind those of the United States, largely
because Beijing was unable to produce small warheads
that could be launched from a single missile at multiple
targets and form the backbone of a modern nuclear force.
But by the mid-1990's, China had built and tested such
small bombs, a breakthrough that officials say was
accelerated by the theft of American nuclear secrets
from Los Alamos National Laboratory in New Mexico.
The espionage is believed to have occurred in the
mid-1980's, officials said. But it was not detected until
1995, when Americans analyzing Chinese nuclear test
results found similarities to America's most advanced
miniature warhead, the W-88."
Are you calling Bill Clinton a spy?
bill
2011-12-23 18:14:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by trijcomm
Post by d***@hotmail.com
Post by trijcomm
Post by David E. Powell
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16292244
<http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16292244>
Gee I wonder who let those leak out? Good they caught it anyway.
Clinton gave China nuclear missile technology. Wouldn't be
surprised if Obama did something like this to get in their good
graces.
Really?  Clinton just handed all the info over did he?
http://www.nytimes.com/1999/03/06/world/breach-los-alamos-special-
rep...
Post by trijcomm
Post by d***@hotmail.com
"Until recently, China's nuclear weapons designs were a generation
behind those of the United States, largely because Beijing was unable
to produce small warheads that could be launched from a single missile
at multiple targets and form the backbone of a modern nuclear force.
But by the mid-1990's, China had built and tested such small bombs, a
breakthrough that officials say was accelerated by the theft of
American nuclear secrets from Los Alamos National Laboratory in New
Mexico.
The espionage is believed to have occurred in the mid-1980's, officials
said. But it was not detected until 1995, when Americans analyzing
Chinese nuclear test results found similarities to America's most
advanced miniature warhead, the W-88."
Are you calling Bill Clinton a spy?
No, he's calling Reagan a Chinese spy.
--
William Black
Jeffrey Hamilton
2011-12-22 22:20:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@hotmail.com
Post by trijcomm
Post by David E. Powell
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16292244
<http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16292244>
Gee I wonder who let those leak out? Good they caught it anyway.
Clinton gave China nuclear missile technology. Wouldn't be surprised
if Obama did something like this to get in their good graces.
Really? Clinton just handed all the info over did he?
http://www.nytimes.com/1999/03/06/world/breach-los-alamos-special-report-china-stole-nuclear-secrets-for-bombs-us-aides.html?pagewanted=all
"Until recently, China's nuclear weapons designs were a
generation behind those of the United States, largely
because Beijing was unable to produce small warheads
that could be launched from a single missile at multiple
targets and form the backbone of a modern nuclear force.
But by the mid-1990's, China had built and tested such
small bombs, a breakthrough that officials say was
accelerated by the theft of American nuclear secrets
from Los Alamos National Laboratory in New Mexico.
The espionage is believed to have occurred in the
mid-1980's, officials said. But it was not detected until
1995, when Americans analyzing Chinese nuclear test
results found similarities to America's most advanced
miniature warhead, the W-88."
So it was Reagan and _not_ Clinton who gave them the secrets, eh ? That is
wonderful news. :)

cheers.....Jeff
Jim Wilkins
2011-12-22 23:23:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeffrey Hamilton
...>>
Post by d***@hotmail.com
The espionage is believed to have occurred in the
mid-1980's, officials said. But it was not detected until
1995, when Americans analyzing Chinese nuclear test
results found similarities to America's most advanced
miniature warhead, the W-88."
So it was Reagan and _not_ Clinton who gave them the secrets, eh ? That is
wonderful news. :)
cheers.....Jeff
Reagan of course had no knowledge, just as Obama and Holder knew nothing of
guns smuggled to Mexico.

The Clinton Administration bungled the Wen Ho Lee investigation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wen_Ho_Lee
http://www.edwardjayepstein.com/archived/wenholee.htm
Ray O'Hara
2011-12-23 03:14:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Wilkins
Post by Jeffrey Hamilton
...>>
Post by d***@hotmail.com
The espionage is believed to have occurred in the
mid-1980's, officials said. But it was not detected until
1995, when Americans analyzing Chinese nuclear test
results found similarities to America's most advanced
miniature warhead, the W-88."
So it was Reagan and _not_ Clinton who gave them the secrets, eh ? That
is wonderful news. :)
cheers.....Jeff
Reagan of course had no knowledge, just as Obama and Holder knew nothing
of guns smuggled to Mexico.
The Clinton Administration bungled the Wen Ho Lee investigation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wen_Ho_Lee
http://www.edwardjayepstein.com/archived/wenholee.htm
so the crime is the investigation and not the Traitor Reagan selling the
Chinese secrets?
just like he sold Iran weapons.
David E. Powell
2011-12-23 05:48:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Wilkins
Post by Jeffrey Hamilton
...>>
Post by d***@hotmail.com
The espionage is believed to have occurred in the
mid-1980's, officials said. But it was not detected until
1995, when Americans analyzing Chinese nuclear test
results found similarities to America's most advanced
miniature warhead, the W-88."
So it was Reagan and _not_ Clinton who gave them the secrets, eh ? That
is wonderful news.   :)
 cheers.....Jeff
Reagan of course had no knowledge, just as Obama and Holder knew nothing
of guns smuggled to Mexico.
The Clinton Administration bungled the Wen Ho Lee investigation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wen_Ho_Lee
http://www.edwardjayepstein.com/archived/wenholee.htm
 so the crime is the investigation and not the Traitor Reagan selling the
Chinese secrets?
just like he sold Iran weapons.
1. Please confirm the transfer was voluntary.

2. In the 1980s, especially the early 1980s, US doctrine was to split
the big two communist powers by playing China against Russia. Remember
the fear of the 1950s and 1960s that the two would team up. China
looking elsewhere for tech was one thing that resulted from the Sino-
Soviet split.
trijcomm
2011-12-22 21:55:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by trijcomm
Post by David E. Powell
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16292244
<http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16292244>
Gee I wonder who let those leak out? Good they caught it anyway.
Clinton gave China nuclear missile technology. Wouldn't be surprised
if Obama did something like this to get in their good graces.
Really?  Clinton just handed all the info over did he?
In 1996 Clinton approved the export of radiation hardened chip sets to
China. The specialized chips are necessary for fighting a nuclear war.
Look it up yourself. Why must I always do your homework for you???
Paul F Austin
2011-12-22 23:22:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by trijcomm
Post by Dean Markley
Post by trijcomm
Post by David E. Powell
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16292244
<http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16292244>
Gee I wonder who let those leak out? Good they caught it anyway.
Clinton gave China nuclear missile technology. Wouldn't be surprised
if Obama did something like this to get in their good graces.
Really? Clinton just handed all the info over did he?
In 1996 Clinton approved the export of radiation hardened chip sets to
China. The specialized chips are necessary for fighting a nuclear war.
Look it up yourself. Why must I always do your homework for you???
There's less there than meets the eye. All radiation-hardened devices
fall under ITAR export restrictions, even the ones used in normal space
environments.

There is not detail in the SOFTWAR on what kind of microprocessors but
the devices are for a specific satellite, so only a handful (probably
less than ten) of devices are involved.

It's not possible to reverse engineer the processes needed to fabricate
such a device from the device itself, so the Chinese get a handful of
processors which would do them little good for "fighting a nuclear war".
The specific process steps needed to fabricate a rad-hard device include
things like annealing times for specific thin film layers, not the sort
of things you can measure after the fact.

I'm not very fond of Bill Clinton and his cozy relationship with China
but this looks like much noise about little.

Paul
Dean Markley
2011-12-24 13:39:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by trijcomm
Post by trijcomm
Post by David E. Powell
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16292244
<http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16292244>
Gee I wonder who let those leak out? Good they caught it anyway.
Clinton gave China nuclear missile technology. Wouldn't be surprised
if Obama did something like this to get in their good graces.
Really?  Clinton just handed all the info over did he?
In 1996 Clinton approved the export of radiation hardened chip sets to
China. The specialized chips are necessary for fighting a nuclear war.
Look it up yourself. Why must I always do your homework for you???
I merely asked for clarification. I didn't and haven't asked you to
do my "homework". After all, this is a discussion is it not? You
are free not to say anything or you could just clarify what you meant
in the first place.

skeltonp@cogeco.ca
2011-12-22 20:19:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by trijcomm
Post by David E. Powell
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16292244
<http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16292244>
Gee I wonder who let those leak out? Good they caught it anyway.
Clinton gave China nuclear missile technology. Wouldn't be surprised
if Obama did something like this to get in their good graces.
They were sold by Germany to South Korea, Shanghai is the next port of
call for the ship, not necessarily the destination of the missiles.
David E. Powell
2011-12-22 21:23:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@cogeco.ca
Post by trijcomm
Post by David E. Powell
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16292244
<http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16292244>
Gee I wonder who let those leak out? Good they caught it anyway.
Clinton gave China nuclear missile technology. Wouldn't be surprised
if Obama did something like this to get in their good graces.
They were sold by Germany to South Korea, Shanghai is the next port of
call for the ship, not necessarily the destination of the missiles.
Thank goodness. I'm still not too sure I like them passing through
there though, it would seem easy for China to get someone on board and
get some info before they reached their final port.

I am sure there were a few phone calls once this hit the news
though....

President Obama doing it would be odd as it would be insane, not just
on defense but if he was caught doing so under the table going into an
election cycle.

Agreed with Juergen, they are sort of correct to label them as
fireworks.... ;)
trijcomm
2011-12-22 21:58:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by David E. Powell
Post by ***@cogeco.ca
Post by trijcomm
Post by David E. Powell
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16292244
<http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16292244>
Gee I wonder who let those leak out? Good they caught it anyway.
Clinton gave China nuclear missile technology. Wouldn't be surprised
if Obama did something like this to get in their good graces.
They were sold by Germany to South Korea, Shanghai is the next port of
call for the ship, not necessarily the destination of the missiles.
Thank goodness. I'm still not too sure I like them passing through
there though, it would seem easy for China to get someone on board and
get some info before they reached their final port.
I am sure there were a few phone calls once this hit the news
though....
President Obama doing it would be odd as it would be insane, not just
on defense but if he was caught doing so under the table going into an
election cycle.
In 1996 Clinton approved the export of radiation hardened chip sets to
China. The specialized chips are necessary for fighting a nuclear war.
If Clinton could get away with it, why not Obama?
David E. Powell
2011-12-22 22:10:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by trijcomm
Post by David E. Powell
Post by ***@cogeco.ca
Post by trijcomm
Post by David E. Powell
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16292244
<http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16292244>
Gee I wonder who let those leak out? Good they caught it anyway.
Clinton gave China nuclear missile technology. Wouldn't be surprised
if Obama did something like this to get in their good graces.
They were sold by Germany to South Korea, Shanghai is the next port of
call for the ship, not necessarily the destination of the missiles.
Thank goodness. I'm still not too sure I like them passing through
there though, it would seem easy for China to get someone on board and
get some info before they reached their final port.
I am sure there were a few phone calls once this hit the news
though....
President Obama doing it would be odd as it would be insane, not just
on defense but if he was caught doing so under the table going into an
election cycle.
In 1996 Clinton approved the export of radiation hardened chip sets to
China. The specialized chips are necessary for fighting a nuclear war.
If Clinton could get away with it, why not Obama?
A lot more people would understand missile sales in an unmarked ships
than a chip transfer.

Plus our allies in the region who count on Patriots we have sold them
to deter the Chinese would be mega pissed.

Once again I don't like the idea of it passing through a Chinese port
before arriving in Souht Korea, who are one of those same allies.

It could be we are putting newer versions into Germany for our missile
troops there and shipping the older ones to SK ownership. Again, I'd
rather see the ship go to South Korea first for that trip before going
to the PRC.....
Juergen Nieveler
2011-12-22 20:54:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by David E. Powell
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16292244
<http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16292244>
Gee I wonder who let those leak out? Good they caught it anyway.
Actually, last I read it turns out that they were from Germany, en
route to South Korea - but some paperwork was filled out wrong, the
customs forms stated that it was fireworks (well, TECHNICALLY not too
far off)
--
Juergen Nieveler
Andrew Chaplin
2011-12-22 22:15:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by David E. Powell
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16292244
<http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16292244>
Gee I wonder who let those leak out? Good they caught it anyway.
Shipping "fireworks" to China? That's like sending coal to Newcastle.
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)
Keith W
2011-12-22 22:39:51 UTC
Permalink
news:f1e51fc1-268a-
Post by David E. Powell
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16292244
<http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16292244>
Gee I wonder who let those leak out? Good they caught it anyway.
Shipping "fireworks" to China? That's like sending coal to Newcastle.
With all the mines closed thats the way it works , in 2004 some
70,000 tons of coal was shipped to Newcastle from Russia

Keith
Dennis
2011-12-22 23:36:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith W
"David E. Powell" <Daviom> wrote in
Post by David E. Powell
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16292244
<http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16292244>
Gee I wonder who let those leak out? Good they caught it anyway.
Shipping "fireworks" to China? That's like sending coal to Newcastle.
With all the mines closed thats the way it works , in 2004 some
70,000 tons of coal was shipped to Newcastle from Russia
I guess all cliche's eventually come true!

Dennis
dott.Piergiorgio
2011-12-23 11:18:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith W
Post by Andrew Chaplin
Shipping "fireworks" to China? That's like sending coal to Newcastle.
With all the mines closed thats the way it works , in 2004 some
70,000 tons of coal was shipped to Newcastle from Russia
Interesting.

How UK think they can strongly disagree with germany *AND* france (whose
are supported by Italy and spain, on top of it...) escapes me...

Best regards from Italy,
dott. Piergiorgio.
David E. Powell
2011-12-23 17:20:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by dott.Piergiorgio
Post by Keith W
Post by Andrew Chaplin
Shipping "fireworks" to China? That's like sending coal to Newcastle.
With all the mines closed thats the way it works , in 2004 some
70,000 tons of coal was shipped to Newcastle from Russia
Interesting.
How UK think they can strongly disagree with germany *AND* france (whose
are supported by Italy and spain, on top of it...) escapes me...
Best regards from Italy,
dott. Piergiorgio.
Well, on the good side for the UK, Russia isn't in Germany, France,
Spain or Russia, and if the Russians would not sell coal to the UK, I
am guessing the US would, we have plenty.
Jeffrey Hamilton
2011-12-22 22:48:54 UTC
Permalink
news:f1e51fc1-268a-
Post by David E. Powell
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16292244
<http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16292244>
Gee I wonder who let those leak out? Good they caught it anyway.
Shipping "fireworks" to China? That's like sending coal to Newcastle.
Yep...... and taking sand to the beach.

cheers....Jeff
Ray O'Hara
2011-12-22 22:25:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by David E. Powell
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16292244
<http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16292244>
Gee I wonder who let those leak out? Good they caught it anyway.
shades of the Mary Deare!.
Jonathan
2011-12-23 01:33:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by David E. Powell
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16292244
<http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16292244>
Gee I wonder who let those leak out? Good they caught it anyway.
Fireworks! 69 Patriots and 160 tons of explosives can make
a nice show. I bet the dictators of the world these days spend
more time thinking about things like air defense systems, than
the average person. Gee, I wonder why?


s
bill
2011-12-23 18:20:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by David E. Powell
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16292244
<http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16292244>
Gee I wonder who let those leak out? Good they caught it anyway.
Fireworks! 69 Patriots and 160 tons of explosives can make a nice show.
I bet the dictators of the world these days spend more time thinking
about things like air defense systems, than the average person. Gee, I
wonder why?
Goodness knows why. That evil bastard in Syria and the degenerate
despots of the Gulf states don't have a problem there...
--
/home/bill/Desktop/sig
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